向美国车告别：写在美国通用破产前夕

工人物语1 · 发表于 2009-1-4 20:01

原帖由 endeavor 于 2009-1-1 23:13 发表
+ X; b% F( L' y& F, _! t* y5 u
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支持Drauto。 ( c% m* _7 G( p2 h1 G
这个论坛里的人中我认为Drauto的话是比其他的人有分量的。因为他是真真正正德修车，相信比那些卖车的更有说服力，因为：
3 A) A' u f! P# v4 w2 ~- ^1。他接触的车多，日本车，美国车，德国车，更有权威，他的观点是中立的 ...

在大多数人眼里，韩国车还没好到可以贬低美国车和日本车来抬高自己的程度。

工人物语1 · 发表于 2009-1-4 20:07

原帖由 drauto 于 2009-1-2 17:48 发表
, T+ F( y- u: E0 ]7 g& c! q$ j: `5 D  G& o/ _  @, g( [1 G1 d
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3 l' L2 h. d. u1 U# P) n( C1 i- @
如果你说它有，那么就请你把相关的recall /TSB 找到贴出来。。
& p) g8 E! J5 H3 q7 l+ z, L( f我再一次重申  什么civic 成批的  缸体开裂  不可信！ HONDA 的service recall 我也不是没有看过。9 \+ T9 r1 N* K; L+ E3 H

* m5 b+ F$ H2 B- i% e. o& P, WHonda    好像    没有这样的recal ...

看来有人无中生有啊！

工人物语1 · 发表于 2009-1-4 20:14

原帖由 rita 于 2009-1-2 23:38 发表 & T! J" \8 }% g8 a* ~

! a E7 o) k# e, l0 S# L搂主和其中几位很有见地，即使观点不同，外行学到很多有趣有用的，endeavor请你别瞎打岔了，你不懂汽车不是你的错，人身攻击就有点让人倒胃了。

有些人文章很乱的，言不达意还老喜欢鄙视别人。

工人物语1 · 发表于 2009-1-4 20:19

原帖由 简简单单 于 2009-1-3 22:43 发表 / ^0 f0 A/ m# h$ g0 \# p
很看不起那些整天抵制日货的人！别人喜欢日本车就要强加于“卖国贼”的头号！纯粹的小农主义！狭隘主义！暴露了你们脆弱的“劣根性”和“自卑感”/ Q0 b; y. F$ N% P
你们生活中不用日货吗？一点不用吗？你们没用过松下索尼没吃过 ...

说的好！严重支持！

suvescape · 发表于 2009-1-4 23:12

原帖由 简简单单 于 2009-1-3 22:43 发表 . d$ f+ a1 K6 q2 }
很看不起那些整天抵制日货的人！别人喜欢日本车就要强加于“卖国贼”的头号！纯粹的小农主义！狭隘主义！暴露了你们脆弱的“劣根性”和“自卑感”$ W6 V5 h* W- n) I3 C+ |& w
你们生活中不用日货吗？一点不用吗？你们没用过松下索尼没吃过 ...

dddddddddddddd

jczb · 发表于 2009-1-4 23:39

以这种手段来达到自己的挣钱目的，手段也太低级了。

yj151 · 发表于 2009-1-5 02:50

原帖由 jczb 于 2009-1-4 23:39 发表
0 O7 I5 L; D6 F: k9 o& h. \4 t! L以这种手段来达到自己的挣钱目的，手段也太低级了。

你的逻辑真高！

HRU · 发表于 2009-1-5 11:09

美国车系的问题

１无心研发安全，可靠，舒适的小型车。生产小型车的唯一目的是骗取免罚款资格。（全线油耗平均值拜小型垃圾车之功降低）

２大型车利润奇高，单车利润高达１５０００美元，里可瓦格纳在佩洛西（著名的反华议长）的逼问下（以１５００卡车为例子零售价４２０００元）亲口承认。至于瓦格纳吹嘘的新一代马里布混合动力，距离丰田佳美混合动力简直就是天地之间。（本人有幸见识了包括福特，通混合动力用的混合动力同丰田佳美的区别）在中国，通用同样劣迹累累，单车利润是美国的８０倍（别克美国每车仅２４０美元，中国超过车价一半）正是这一事实使日本人“良心发现”地纷纷进入中国，因为他们不敢想象的东西正在被通用实现着！看看丰田，本田的车型，均为最新车型。是通用创造的利润空间使日本人惊醒！通用比日本人在利润方面还大胆，更贪婪。

大多数人可能不知道，丰田佳美混合动力的总设计师，总工程师去年活活累死在工作旅途中（在日本前往底特率车展）他每周工作超过８０小时，基本无休息日，他的团队是公司里最有压力的团队。年仅４０多岁，创造出丰田最值得骄傲的车型。这种精神，怎可能不胜过美国对手？

当某些人诅咒日本车的时候，想想这些，就会明白当你只能咒骂对手的时候，你输定了。（韩国人也是很疯狂地追赶，看看起亚怎么研发就知道了，韩国车一定会超过美国车）

当通用单纯追求利润的时候，变成了一个市场的赌徒，焉有不输之理？回顾他们１０年前断然收回自己的全电动车，送到内华达州晒太阳，唯一原因是害怕新技术影响他们的大型车利润。当时日本的电池技术和他们比简直就是残疾人和刘翔比跨栏。现在呢，反过来了。

背景故事：

１９９６年，通用推出了具备革新性的EV1。这是很多人想都不敢想的概念：

双向空调/循迹控制/镁合金车架／车轮

超低空气阻力系数０１９ (奥迪 0.27-0.31)

每充电可行使７０－１５０公里（第一代）120-200km (gen 2)

镍氢电池／特殊玻璃／刹车回充／advance ABS

大多数使用者非常喜欢独特的驾驶体验。可是，通用规定了严格的租赁协议，只租不卖，限制每年行使里数。后来又干脆强行召回全部行驶车辆（２０００年），把它们扔到内华达的沙漠中晒太阳。这是最具有争议性的举动。

通用了理由是：１出现电池过热现象（仅仅１６例，无任何财产损失）

２有些备件供应不及时

而当时通用正在疯狂地推进大型皮卡，越野车的行销。这就是市场背景。

通用每每被问及为什么放弃电动车的问题，总是顾左右而言它。问题是作为一个世界第一的汽车企业，它不能承认是利润和导向使巨人朝错误的方向越走越远。

所以，通过历史，可以明确购买美国新车是从根本上追随通用的赌博性企业行为。

水管工 · 发表于 2009-1-5 16:06

强烈推荐韩国车，质量不比日本车差，价格便宜20%.

HRU · 发表于 2009-1-5 16:38

原帖由 水管工 于 2009-1-5 16:06 发表
7 y* m1 v+ Q! O, d; ?强烈推荐韩国车，质量不比日本车差，价格便宜20%.

This is not true.

comparable price advantage less than 10%

But Korean cars are not as good as Japanese brand names.

My opinion is for the mid size up, it is very good choice for used Korean car.

like used Sorento, new over 33k, 2006 only sale for 16000.(trade in 12500), very good deal. Otherwise, I dont recommand you buy a new one with 33 grand dollars.

KochFord · 发表于 2009-1-5 17:19

首先我是做ford lincoln 销售的，本人第一辆车ford mustang，现在呢开的08 accord coupe V6
2台车都很喜欢，打算有钱了再买个顶级的mustang给老婆开，她天天要蛇蛇（shelby），电影看多了。

个人认为，美国车质量好多年前不好的原因，没人竞争
美国车更粗犷，好多老外更粗，买个车不像咱们中国人爱护。好多有钱人图方便更是lease，每2~4年换新的，
买日本车的人呢，本身就比较爱护自己的车，而且这个坛子的人（中国人）大部分是日本车的客户，看看T&T的停车场。

车的最好使用年限是6年内，原因可见，大部分的汽车厂商都把warranty给锁在5年内
我倒没听说过有多少人说新的美国车有问题。所以那些开着日本车的人说那么多太累了，选一个最适合自己的才是最好的，男人喜新厌旧（别装啊），买车一个道理，谁会开一台车一辈子，我的频率是1~3年，对老婆那是绝对的忠心耿耿，所以不要争论好还是坏了，买（爱）个适合自己的。

总结， “假设我们是韩国人恐怕问题就简单多了，或者买美国车，或者买韩国车，而绝不会买日本车，即使买了日本车也会偷偷的进行，决不会大肆张扬的。为什么呢？因为韩国人有民族的骨气，饿死事小，失节事大。而我们中国人的民族骨气全在嘴上了，一到具体上就全委琐到钱眼儿里面去了，所以我们中国人自古就是笑贫不笑娼的”
还是那句话买个适合你的，
1.有钱人买啥是你自己的事。
2.中产的选一个自己觉得好看的，实用的，3~5年再换个新的。要对得起自己
3.buget的朋友呢，找个专家问问什么旧车能挺，还要看运气
4.有钱还对自己吝啬的，~~~。
5.开美国车说日本车的，还有开日本车说美国车的，开火星车说地球车的，都滚犊子，理解一下吗，要看人家的情况（请参考1~3）。

别给我鲜花，也别仍鸡蛋，非要扔，把正框都给我好吗。

ComfortHardwood · 发表于 2009-1-5 17:32

请问高人门：卡车哪个比较好？silverado1500 / f150 / ram 1500 / tundra / titan.?
还是旱马H3？navigator?srx?escalad?..
正在考虑购买中。
我一向看车，不问产地。要是都是中国造就更好了。

[ 本帖最后由 ComfortHardwood 于 2009-1-5 17:34 编辑 ]

KochFord · 发表于 2009-1-5 18:53

首先你属于有钱人，自己喜欢啥买啥，

2009 F150 Truck of the Year From Motor Trend 顶级配置 Plantium Edtion is about 65000

Suv呢，escalad is awsome，the best 顶级配置 over 100，000，如果用cash买呢差不多可以讲到80000多，我同事的爸爸刚刚买了一个，22寸轮圈，觉得ESV太长不好看，

林肯的navigator 顶级配置 is about 70000，大小跟Escalad差不多，但是没有E 豪华

不建议H3，和srx，不大气

HRU · 发表于 2009-1-5 22:29

If you are buying a truck, I recommend a Tundra 2008 or 2009

Don't buy a Canadian version, buy a U.S one.

Becuase U.S market is a real competitive one and with cash deal, you can buy a limited crewmax for 34,000 dollars.

I bought one for a customer in Texas last October for 32000. It has only 270miles. Everytime I ask him how is the truck, he says way more better than the GM he had. (That GM 1500 still on our lot)

For the Escalade, try the Infinity QX56, then it is your choice. Both are good.

But don't forget in Canadian market, any full size truck a manufacture will get over 15000 profit
ｂｕｔ　ｎｏｔ　ｆｏｒ　ｄｅａｌｅｒｓｈｉｐ．　Ａ　ｄｅａｌｅｒｓｈｉｐ　ｍａｋｅｓ　ａｂｏｕｔ　３０００－４０００ｄｏｌｌａｒｓ　ｏｎ　ａ　ｆｕｌｌ　ｓｉｚｅ　ｐｉｃｋｕｐ　ｏｒ　ＳＵＶ．

工人物语1 · 发表于 2009-1-6 05:26

原帖由 ComfortHardwood 于 2009-1-5 17:32 发表
5 z- D% p9 G; p1 r: u+ Y请问高人门：卡车哪个比较好？silverado1500 / f150 / ram 1500 / tundra / titan.?# A( V* \) ?# c& u
还是旱马H3？navigator?srx?escalad?..
% j; q' B+ ^" k. _* M正在考虑购买中。
B! ]8 f. s1 o, j$ j, {我一向看车，不问产地。要是都是中国造就更好了。

Toyota Tundra is the best
要买ford就狠狠的杀价，千万别手软，美国车利润高。

工人物语1 · 发表于 2009-1-6 05:34

原帖由 水管工 于 2009-1-5 16:06 发表 5 P1 I( U& C) m+ ?, p O9 {
强烈推荐韩国车，质量不比日本车差，价格便宜20%.

没有论述、数据来支持观点？！你这好比以前中国的一首歌：“社会主义好！社会主义好！社会主义就是好！就是好！。。。”

依勒特 · 发表于 2009-1-6 12:47

建议LZ别用一些过激的字眼，如鄙视等等。要客观，多交朋友。建议向今天闲着学习。

记得几年前，Suzuki也是通用旗下的。

[ 本帖最后由依勒特于 2009-1-6 12:52 编辑 ]

shark27 · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:26

原帖由 HRU 于 2009-1-5 22:29 发表
% a6 q  i$ l& ?0 f8 sIf you are buying a truck, I recommend a Tundra 2008 or 20091 ]4 W+ O" D* T" {

8 x" d. a  I: C; r& ^3 cDon't buy a Canadian version, buy a U.S one.
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  R0 D- B/ Q8 e8 ^: HBecuase U.S market is a real competitive one and with cash deal, you can buy a limited c ...

seems like some people only care how the cars looks, but not how they performs. Tundra is been proven that has way more peoblems from the design and engineering side other than GM,DODGE and FORD, QX56 is big joke from Nissan with tinny little diff, shitty interrior, poor engine and bad chassic engineering

KochFord · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:44

原帖由 HRU 于 2009-1-5 22:29 发表
$ g' D- s/ o2 d! L3 m* y! }) TIf you are buying a truck, I recommend a Tundra 2008 or 2009- ]6 x6 V! ^/ F6 o

% q0 V. _8 ^# ~* c- Z6 f3 K: D9 iDon't buy a Canadian version, buy a U.S one.- Z( A3 N( x2 @: U

- q3 W* I: x A; m) X8 |! eBecuase U.S market is a real competitive one and with cash deal, you can buy a limited c ...

come on man, please don't fool your customers,

From working truck perspective:

Ford’s frame is fully boxed from head to toe, while most of Toyota’s frame is a "C" channel.

Did you realize the Ford has a very high percentage of its torque at 1000rpm, plus 2009 brings 6 speed, low gear torque, high gear fuel economic.

Low end torgue is a huge advantage when towing/hauling,and the Ford does it better and easier, and all the while doing it safer for the

passengers. F-150 best selling truck in five decade. No joke here, the truck of the year 2009. anyway, tundrua is a fun toy

QX56 uses much the same formula as the Cadillac Escalade and Lincoln Navigator to attract attention, it is the only Japanese entry in

the battle of bling SUVs, attention here, QX56 is the worst selling Luxury Suv in 2008 for Market News Magzine, only 54 accross

Canada

customers' yan jing shi xue liang de

[ 本帖最后由 KochFord 于 2009-1-6 16:49 编辑 ]

shark27 · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:46

原帖由 简简单单 于 2009-1-3 22:43 发表
% w7 g* _: \! Z) F很看不起那些整天抵制日货的人！别人喜欢日本车就要强加于“卖国贼”的头号！纯粹的小农主义！狭隘主义！暴露了你们脆弱的“劣根性”和“自卑感”
8 Q! y/ H- |6 j9 J. N! O9 f你们生活中不用日货吗？一点不用吗？你们没用过松下索尼没吃过 ...

金窝银窝，不如自己的狗窝；子不嫌母丑，狗不嫌家贫。你要是真的爱国，要是真的有点社会责任感，就拿出点尊严来。汉奸卖国贼的一大特点就是墙头草，风往哪边吹，就往哪边倒

My2cents · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:48

2008各大车厂成绩单:
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
看看TUNDRA排第几！

[ 本帖最后由 My2cents 于 2009-1-6 16:50 编辑 ]

shark27 · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:49

原帖由 drauto 于 2009-1-2 23:00 发表
- d. W! j: m" q% i) V
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: x. h! z7 ^& \, M, d“problems are out there， depend on how lucky you are ”-----问题就在那儿，就看你的运气了。
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8 g( B6 d1 k! n9 e/ b+ C: k: 不懂车的人相信这一点（civic 成批的缸体破裂）有情可原。。。。# [9 K3 C9 n/ [. v8 N7 `# }5 l
8 ]0 ^! R+ M% [+ d6 V& ]
_______________the end________ ...

对啊，懂车的人还喊着BENZ有无数前驱车，还把用一个破开关吧别人的relay给by pass了就叫解决问题，厉害

[ 本帖最后由 shark27 于 2009-1-6 16:51 编辑 ]

shark27 · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:50

原帖由小黄于 2009-1-4 07:35 发表 ; B) b- O- G- b) b+ I$ {4 ?0 ~6 Q
补充一个小黄的个人经历：
" K" K; d8 t X4 u' C- j* t/ J3 K2 r! T' K$ E
小黄16年前来到加拿大，当时对汽车理解是一张白纸。因为当初国内也基本只有桑塔纳皇冠而已，对美国车更是一无所知。所以不存在任何偏见。. L* v' C, T0 ~! d

* Q& U/ I7 u( V+ P- Q, h1993的汽车媒体的主流信息就是，日本车曾经 ...

黄教授，开过新malibu么？

KochFord · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:56

原帖由 My2cents 于 2009-1-6 16:48 发表
+ |! R& [( Y0 w' K* a2008各大车厂成绩单:
/ E5 @+ g: I- |8 F; C- r/ G$ chttp://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html, ^* l9 ~+ n, S: A; [* n' ~% o& g
看看TUNDRA排第几！

that's US,

My2cents · 发表于 2009-1-6 16:58

原帖由 KochFord 于 2009-1-6 16:56 发表 [ Q* H0 b6 n) u+ k7 ^& _

! o7 O5 k6 F# T2 C3 q- q: |. }. y
+ F3 A$ s( I7 y) p6 U/ ?; ?) Dthat's US,

It doesn't matter.

shark27 · 发表于 2009-1-6 17:54

原帖由 My2cents 于 2009-1-6 16:48 发表 * |% w6 e2 C' ^7 W7 S
2008各大车厂成绩单:1 ?1 s7 P0 M. G( \" ~
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
$ p, d+ D6 p6 P- C1 I( c& ~+ H看看TUNDRA排第几！

Monday, January 05, 2009
Top 20 vehicles, current month's sales
    Dec 2008 % Chg from
Dec '07 YTD 2008 % Chg from
YTD 2007
Ford F - Series PU 41,580 -24.5 515,513 -25.4
Chevrolet Silverado PU 33,340 -37.8 465,065 -24.8
Toyota Camry / Solara 25,275 -34.9 436,617 -7.7
Honda Accord 22,348 -28.5 372,789 -5.0
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 22,129 -22.6 351,007 -5.5
Chevrolet Impala 21,148 18.8 265,840 -14.6
Chevrolet Malibu 17,355 48.5 177,088       51.5
Nissan Altima 17,311 -31.2 269,668 -5.3
Honda Civic 17,302 -36.4 339,289       2.5
Dodge Ram PU 16,618 -48.3 245,840 -31.4
Honda CR-V 13,933 -25.3 197,279 -10.0
GMC Sierra PU 12,980 -34.4 168,544 -19.1
Chevrolet Cobalt 12,786 -27.3 188,045 -6.3
Ford Focus 11,671 -16.8 195,823       13.1
Ford Escape 10,967 -17.6 156,544 -5.5
Ford Fusion 10,274 -24.1 147,569 -1.3
Lexus RX 350 / 330 / 400h 9,932 -16.1 84,181 -18.5
Toyota Tundra 9,191 -52.2 137,249 -30.2
Toyota RAV4 8,795 -36.3 137,020 -20.7
Toyota Tacoma PU 8,691 -34.6 144,653 -16.5

shark27 · 发表于 2009-1-6 17:59

原帖由小黄于 2009-1-4 07:59 发表
) w# o: {7 N" A% x# e3 l) v; ^7 X* P8 s" j0 y) |! T
再者，从白马的角度看，日车的确可能质量不好。毕竟你是修车的，看到的都是坏车嘛。但好比，你修过1辆Caliber，修过2辆Civic，看上去日车要差一倍。可实际是，Civic北美年销量有约30万个，Caliber不详（因为根本上不了销量排行榜，估计不会超过5万个），所以，按照故障比例，倒是 Civic更好。所以，要评价车的好坏，必须好的坏的一起算，不能只算坏的

你以为所有人都跟你一样聪明么？

HRU · 发表于 2009-1-7 00:27

To Koch Ford

First, I am not a truck guy that crazy about driving a truck in offroad oilfield or construction site with full trailer load.

But, I did drive Ford F150 2008 Kingranch/2008 GMC SIERRA 1500 SLT /Tundra crewmax limited 5.6

Among this three, I think the tundra is the best ride, best interior,best towing.

Ford is also good in ride and handling, but when I tow a boat to the lake, the handle was much worse than the tundra on the high way 16

I sure know the DVDs compare with tundra and gm. But simply the size of bolt, the shape of frame does not mean Ford F150 is the best. In this cata, Tundra is the best.

Also interior, I was so disspointed about F150 (2008), it is the worst in the trio. Big gap among center console, radio sucks... Only thing good is handle.

To shark, most of you comments are not ture about nissan. The handle is one of best full size suv and truck. titan is the second best truck on the road.

I am not a Nissan sales, neither Toyota. But I am Lucky enough to drive all brand names except dodge newest one. Not only as toy (passenger car),but also tow a 2500kg boat. My personal experience is tundra is the best. (I did not tow anything by titian) Titan is also nice to drive. You mentioned differ 's size, but I don't think any problem for that.

by the way, this is a bbs for sharing expeerience, not an argument garden. Please give some real life story, not from other's mouth. All my comments are from my personal experience, maybe not full scale, but it is first hand.

KochFord · 发表于 2009-1-7 09:55

HRU----" I am not a truck guy "  says everything

No1,  F-150  is the number one selling in five decade among the trucks' sale, how many Tundra sold in last five decade,  not even exist back to ~~~~

No2. 2009 F-150's inteior is much better than ever, Sony audio systerm(700 watts deliver outstanding sound) with Micro  Sync is way beyond the Tundra's offer. again, study it before you say it

No3. are you kidding me the tundra's towing is better.is only because you dirve once with shitty attitude about American vehicles. Subjective, isn't it

F-150 is the first and only truck to combine class-leading towing capability in every cab style, Trailer Sway Control stabilization technology, and integrated trailer brake controller, a

rear view camera and telescoping trailer tow mirrors, all add up to towing that feels effortless and more controlled than ever.

No4.    google it " F150  Vs  Tundra"    see what's goning on there

by the way,  I drove the QX56 in 2007, too much body roll, other than that, it's all right. Again Escalade is the one, the only "rich" should consider at that size

HRU · 发表于 2009-1-7 15:15

I don't have attitude against American car at all.

In ford line, I only appreciate Ford Mustang(V8) and Ford Explore Sportrac V8(2008).

However, the mustang's power is weak compared with BMW545, though the engine size/horse power is similar.

Sportrac interior needs improve. I have no chance to drive any 2009 Ford truck or SUV, can't comment on the interior

Again, please do not only compare by numbers (like compare Mustang V8 vs Bmw 545), drive one.

If you do drive a Toyota Tundra, you will change your thoughts as I did ( I did believe domestic makes good truck), Toyota simply need time to prove it.

Don't mention Ford is no.1, sales volume doesn't mean high quality. The truck topic is too deep for us, we are not driving truck for living in the oilfield or heavy duty construction. We drive truck for fun, some daily practical task or some light duty towing. My experince limited to this.

If you do drive truck a lot, tell us your experience, I am glad to know that.

I agree you with QX56 idea, but which full size Suv not suffer body roll? (my worst experience is a Ford Expolore 2004 white), even the Cadi Escalade. Interesting thing is the Hummer H2 is prety good in city. I know some pepople will blame me saying that cause H2 is for offroad, not ride quality in the city. TRY YOURSELF.

I already said Ford F150 has good ride and handle, but not very good towing a boat compare Tundra. Please try yourself and you will have your idea. Maybe becuase the rigidity is too high of Ford F150?

I do have experience driving a truck, you have to admit 2008 and earlier Ford F150 interior need a lot of attentions compare with GM newer-Not classic.

Dodge for sure every aspect is the worst, interior, quality, and value.

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向美国车告别：写在美国通用破产前夕

Toyota Tundra is the best

2008各大车厂成绩单

To Koch Ford and Shark -aboutn Tundra and Qx56

To Ford Koch

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